Funny is Serious Business| The Freelance Creative Exchange (#8) Judee Tan and Nicole Lee

“I don't even know how to work a PowerPoint, and now I have to do Instagram.”

In this episode, we speak to funny women Judee Tan and Nicole Lee about creating comedy content for the digital platform, how traditional theatre is affected by digital disruption, the differences between the online audience from Singapore and Indonesia, working with Gen Z and hitting the big 3-0.

Judee Tan wears multiple hats as an actress, director, writer and host. She has been one of Singapore’s funniest comedians for years – whether she’s reporting from North Korea as The Noose’s Kim Bong Cha, or playing nervous TCM practitioner Dr. Teo Chew Moi in Happy Ever Laughter.

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/judeetan/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Judeelicious/

Nicole Lee is the CEO and co-founder of Fix Productions, a production house that specializes in comedic digital content.

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fixproductions

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChrl...

Jayce: Hi everyone, this is Jayce.

Yen-Lyng: And I'm Yen-Lyng.

Jayce: Welcome to Freelance Creative Exchange, where every episode we speak to a freelancer about freelancing and the gig economy.

Yen-Lyng: So today we are here with both Nicole & Judee.

Nicole: Hi.

Judee: Hi.

Yen-Lyng: So first, Judee, some of you might know her, she wears multiple hats as an actress, director, writer and host. So yeah, plays a lot of roles, and she has been one of Singapore's funniest comedians for years, so you have seen her on TV.

Judee: For years.

Nicole: That's how we know your age.

Yen-Lyng: Well, still looks young, that's all that matters. And Nicole, Nicole here is the CEO and co-founder of Fix Productions. A production house that specializes in comedic digital content.

Jayce: So, it looks like today's episode will be very funny.

Judee: Funny.

Nicole: Funny.

Judee: The pressure is on us, why don't you? Can now, we have the production crew laughing?

Nicole: As long as somebody's laughing, that's okay.

Jayce: It's okay, even if nobody's laughing, we are laughing ourselves, so that's fine.

Yen-Lyng: Now we can insert some comedic laughter, post production.

Jayce: Right, okay, so very quickly, thank you so much Nicole and Judee for joining us on the show today.

Nicole: Thank you for having us.

Judee: Yeah.

Jayce: You're welcome. So, maybe we'll start off with a short introduction about yourself and then maybe you can share with us, how do you start in the industry? Maybe Judee, you want to go first?

Nicole: Please, no Mandarin okay? I look Chinese, but I can't speak it. 

Judee: I suppose I will start from, my root has been, I have been a theatre actress first, well also call it a traditional theatre actress, and then one day I did this parody of the defame, dethrone, I don't know if you still remember her? Ris Low. The beauty queen that cannot speak English properly.

Nicole: Is she Singaporean?

Judee: Is she Singaporean? I don't know, she speaks English.

Nicole: What's her name? I need to write this down, I need to know who this is.

Judee: It's like, Ris, R-I-S. So, then I did a parody on her, on stage.

Jayce: And she got really famous?

Judee: Yeah, and then I think that's when the people on Channel 5, the news at that time, when it was still on, they said, “Oh, they needed another girl,” because they needed more…

Yen-Lyng: Actresses and everything.

Judee: Yeah, more actors, more characters and everything. So, they said, “Go on the news,” and then on the news it was, “Kim Bong Cha from North Korea,” which now I cannot do any more. “Kim Bong Cha.” 

Then I also have this other character called Dr. Teo Chew Moi, and she's playing now actually, this is the character that I'm going to play later at the Dream Academies, 4th instalment of Happily Ever Laughter, the stand-up comedy show.

So, that's kind of how the route is, don't know how, but you know? Life just, boom, like that.

Yen-Lyng: Dumps it on you, whether you want it or not, it dumps it on you.

Judee: Yeah, it's like, “Okay, you want funny? Alright, I'll give you funny.”

Nicole: “This is what I can do.”

Jayce: But it seems like the Singapore audience generally like more funny stuff and things like that, would you say that?

Judee: I suppose, because we're so stressed, and the world is getting, kind of –

Nicole: More stressful. 

Judee: In a way, isn't it like even with YouTube… 

Nicole: Yeah.

Judee:  Which is what you do, the comedic content, and that’s why, I think people just want to be able to have that release. How do you feel, on how you got to do on YouTube?

Yen-Lyng: Thanks for being the host.

Nicole: So, I was a producer, after university, I was 22 and I moved back. I was actually deciding between Singapore and Indonesia. I grew up in Indonesia, so I decided to go back, and it was the first job that I got offered. I was working as a producer for Indonesian soap operas, you know like, the really zoom in, zoom out sort of thing. 

Then, in 2015 I approached my now partner, who is also a producer to create a YouTube channel, because I think that was when YouTube was sort of having these YouTubers that we have now, it was sort of developing them. But we wanted to make some quality content right, so we did a few things for some clients first. The first few projects that we did were for Go-Jek, I don't know if you guys have heard of Go-Jek?

Judee: I have heard of Go-Jek.

Nicole: Who are now coming to Singapore, and for HappyFresh who also just joined with Grab. So, we were doing that to make some capital and in 2016 we started the channel, and we just reached 100k a few days ago.

Jayce: Oh, congratulations.

Nicole: Yeah, and like you said, one of the reasons that we chose comedy, in the beginning I wanted to make something like… 

Judee: Meaningful? 

Nicole: Meaningful.

Judee: I know what you mean.

Nicole: I was a really big fan of Wong Fu Productions in Jubilee, and as a girl I wanted to make something that a woman would be able to relate to, and my partners were like, “You know what, comedy is going to be easier to sell.” Which is true, it's what has happened now, and now I've kind of forgotten about the romantic stuff.

Judee: Let's revisit it one day, this woman thing, this woman thing, okay the four of us sitting here.

Nicole: But that's the thing, I think I was wrong. I mean a lot – 

Judee: I mean the whole women – 

Jayce: Woman's channel.

Judee: Yeah.

Nicole: The majority of our demographic and our viewers are male actually now. 

Judee: Really?

Nicole: I think a lot of our content appeals to the male audience, and a lot of women appeal to this, what sort of pulls at their heart or whatever. But I don't think that comedy, as a result, you can also see that, it doesn't not appeal to women, there are funny women in the industry.

Judee: There are. There are.

Yen-Lyng: I don't think it's so much, I mean I'm not sure whether Indonesia has that trend, but for past campaigns that we have run for our clients, we always see that in Indonesia it has a lot of views. It's generally, the majority of them are males

Judee: Is it the excess though, is it an Indonesian thing, like generally in terms of culture? 

Jayce: Yeah, I think it's also the growth of mobile penetration in Indonesia, because by size, they are just one of the largest around the region. So, in that sense, when mobile penetration picks up, so that's where a lot of people actually started to access digital.

There was a study that I once came across, that actually a lot of the people in South East Asia, like Vietnam, Indonesia, they didn't realize Facebook is actually a website, to them it is part of the phone, to them it's like messaging. 

Yen-Lyng: Like Microsoft is a computer.

Jayce: Correct, exactly. I guess it's probably just due to the growth of mobile penetration.

Judee: And in Singapore the viewership, or do you know, is it all kind of equal between male and female?

Yen-Lyng: Well, it's more balanced, males still sort of have a bit more, just a bit more, but it's really more balanced. But Indonesia, there’s always this huge gap.

Nicole: It's a huge gap, it depends on what they… I think it's also just the education, right? The education level in Singapore is much higher than it is in Indonesia, and Indonesia is the 4th largest country in the world and I think the majority of the masses don't get the education that they need. So, they don't know actually, exactly what you said, they think that Facebook is part of the phone. So, yeah, YouTube is a growing market, definitely in Indonesia. There are so many YouTubers in Indonesia, I mean anybody can be a part of it, and now they're doing this whole… That's another thing. I was going to say the Tick Tock thing, have you guys heard of that?

Jayce: No, what's that?

Nicole: Is that not big here? It is so big in Indonesia.

Judee: Where they video themselves?

Nicole: Yes, I did it once. I don't know where it's shown, but they're so good at connecting influencers with their brand, so all these little kids are doing it, and I'm just like, “I just want to smack them.”

Yen-Lyng: I'm a bit like that as well, when I see like way younger, I'm not sure, “Should you do a video like that?” You know how it's like when you see the young girl and you're like, maybe you start to think, “Was I ever that annoying?” 

Nicole: Yeah, I always think that way. I was watching this kid, she must've been eight, and she was just like taking… and then she was asking her mum to take a selfie of her and I was like, “Oh my God, play outside.”

Judee: That's the world now.

Nicole: It is the world, it is the world, and I think as entertainers or freelancers, I suppose, we have to keep up with the trend, whether we like it or not, I think.

Jayce: I think that's very true, but coming back to the freelancing industries, so Judee you have been a freelancer for a couple of years now?

Judee: 10, 10 years, here and there.

Jayce: So, compared back to when you first started to now, what's the difference in the industry that you see in Singapore?

Yen-Lyng: Or even, you know you jumped from theatre which was live to TV, I mean you're still in theatre on the stage a lot, do you see a difference between any of this?

Judee: I mean, in terms of performing, the modes are so different, so yes there's always the adjusting. I always want to say, I'm most comfortable in the theatre, because that was what I studied in Uni as well anyway, it was through that practice, and also because my love for theatre is because you do a lot of research, because you have that time to do it. You really do all of that before you put it out. So, you have that, well, it’s a privilege and a luxury to be able to be able to do that. Whereas for TV it's kind of like you just have to be there and there. Did I just say be there and there? Yeah be there and there.

Jayce: Do you mean that?

Judee: Yeah. So sometimes you just have to wing it, you kind of have to wing it. It's very hard to… I feel like I have the right to say about this. 

Yen-Lyng: But it's the other way around a lot of the times.

Judee: Oh, do some people think it's the other way around?

Yen-Lyng: You know theatre on stage is where you…

Judee: You can't wing it but if anything fails you do have to improvise. So, you have to be live.

Nicole: But you're saying, like once you get into a project, you get to focus on that project a lot.

Judee: Yeah, because the theatre-making process is so long you cannot not… 

Nicole: Whereas TV must be very fast-paced.

Judee: Yeah, TV is so much faster that everything you do is there, and you guys get to do a lot of post-prod, your post-prod is on stage for theatre, so everything is there. 

So, I mean, I enjoy that but having done TV a few years, I also enjoy it but it's a different kind of enjoyment. I kind of enjoy the, just kicking it live with the crew as well and just kind of like improvise on there as well, so that's fun. 

But in terms of the market, I think as we were sharing just now, I think now with the whole digital media coming out, everything has changed so rapidly in the past, just two or three years., because it was all just broadcast, normal.

Jayce: How has this affected theatre?

Judee: So, theatre as well, well now you see that we have to reach out to people through social media which is such a weird thing.

Nicole: Yeah, I’m sure that it is.

Judee: It's also an age thing, right?

Nicole: I think that because theatre has also been such an old art, whereas when you have to connect it with something so new as social media, it seems like it should not match, but it’s like you have to do it.

Judee: Yeah, we have to do it, and even when I talk about the age thing, I'm sure a lot of other people my age can relate, which is that, you now have to connect with people not with the traditional forms of whatever it was, but now I have to connect with my fans through…

Nicole: And it’s the only way.

Judee: Yeah, through a medium that I was never familiar with. I don't even know how to work a PowerPoint, and now I have to do Instagram.

Jayce: Was that difficult to pick?

Judee: It was, but then again, it's so easy, it's actually so easy. But everyone else has made it so much harder, because now they know the algorithm thing and then all the other content creators on Instagram now know how best to get views, or blah, blah, blah. There's an art to it now. There's a whole industry to it now.

Yen-Lyng: There seems like there's a secret formula only those few know.

Judee: Or like they've been working at it, it becomes like a full-time day at it, yeah.

Yen-Lyng: So, when you do it as a part-time thing you're like, “What? I'll just post something and hope for the best.”

Nicole: Hope for the best, “Well I hope this gets out.”

Judee: You must be really good, because you do digital content.

Nicole: I mean, first of all, you definitely have to know your market. We're living and working in Indonesia for a long time now, I think if you asked me to do what I do in Indonesia in Singapore, I wouldn't be able to do it, it would have to take me a few months to learn what the market is like here. 

Secondly, our brand, I think, if we, for example, have a client-based project, we'll try to figure out who their demographic is first and then see through that, “Okay this is probably the best way to connect to your demographic.” But for the channel, for our own channel, Fix Productions, in the beginning I think my partners and I were very like, “Is this going to work? Is this going to work?” And we were trying to see what was trending on YouTube and things.

Then after about a year or so, I think it took about a year or maybe like eight months for us to really be comfortable in what we were doing, and just being consistent with it. So, “Okay, this is what we're going to do, we're going to stick to sketches, and sort of these taste test sort of things,” and that was basically what got us noticed. 

So, I think it's not whether or not… You can be consistent, I think everybody has their own style of doing it, but I think if you're consistent with what you're doing, people will notice you eventually.

Yen-Lyng: But do you guys decide on that direction, because you guys were receiving the feedback, like, “Oh these are getting reviews”?

Nicole: Like the comments?

Yen-Lyng: Or was it more of like, “I like doing this a bit more”?

Nicole: I think it was both, in the beginning I was very conscious about the comments, I would go through each one. I have two other partners, but we sort of gave each other positions, like they nominated me as CEO, just because I was a girl, and they were like, “I think you're going to be more organized than us,” and I was like, “Okay, they’re two guys,” and in the middle of the night I would go through all the comments and I would message my other partner and I would be like, “Oh my God, did you read this?” And he's like, “Dude, just chill.” 

Judee: Wow, “Don’t worry about it.”

Nicole: “No-one's going to care. We don't even know who they are. Do they know the production that you do?” And he was completely right, if we're going to get into this sort of industry, it's exactly like you would put a movie up or a TV, people are going to comment, and people are going to disagree with you style, but as long as you're okay with it and as long as you think something works, and we have the credentials for it, so why not?

Judee: I'm going to say actually, that would be tip number two, like for any of such, as a freelancer or as a creator… 

Nicole: As a creator, as someone in the entertainment industry I would say.

Judee: Yeah, what you have to be assured about, if it's going to be a 50/50, 50% is what your audience feel, you have to have that 50%, 100% in you, you cannot really worry so much.

Nicole: Exactly, now I only go through the comments when I've had a drink.

Judee: Or that, tip number three.

Nicole: When I'm a little bit tipsy and I feel like commenting back and be like, “Thanks guys,” and if someone makes a bad comment, I'll be like, “Well don't watch my channel.”

Jayce: But I'm just wondering, are Indonesian audiences much more critical compared to Singaporean audiences? Do you know?

Nicole: No, I think that every country or every market is going to be different and I think everybody… Now, where did I read this? I think it was Tony Blair actually, who was in Singapore and he was doing something on Channel News Asia and he was saying that we are in the age of social media where it's the age of the loud mouth, and everybody is going to have an opinion and everybody is going to want to say something, and I don't think whether or not Singaporeans are going to say something and Indonesians are going to say something. There may be more educated comments from Singapore I'd say, but people behind the camera, people watching from a screen are not going to know the process that you went through to shoot that. For example, like the process you went through to make up a sketch or something, or if something that you did on stage, the process you went through to prepare yourself. So, if you don't know and you're not part of the industry, then you can say whatever you want but I'm probably not going to listen to you.

Yen-Lyng: But I think that's the challenge that you guys, as, I guess, in a sense performers, you know, when you guys are in front of the camera, you guys have that challenge, whereas a lot of creators, other creators, be it freelancers or in-house creators, a lot of the times they're behind the camera, you don't even see them. You don't see [unclear 00:19:44] behind there right now. But you guys have to face it, so even if you have ten people behind the camera, but the responsibility a lot… 

Judee: Is on the face, is on the people who appear, there is that pressure let me tell you that.

Nicole: I mean you must feel it much more than I've ever done so.

Judee: Sometimes it gets a bit tiring, it does, but you have to build resilience. 

Nicole: I think especially for an actress, for someone who has to be on camera.

Judee: You have to, there is no other way of doing it. 

Nicole: Exactly.

Judee: Yeah. So, you kind of have to build the resilience and also you have to build this discernment, you have to really know who you're listening to, what your gut feeling tells you and all that. So, in a way, it's a good process, it's a good journey, because in some ways you either completely lose yourself and re-find, which in some ways, I'm doing that now. In all my ten years I've had to do a bit of, going under the wave and like, “What's going on?” And then, “Okay, okay, I think so.” And then you think that you're getting there.

Nicole: It's a lot of ups and downs I think.

Judee: Yeah, there’s a lot of that.

Nicole: I mean maybe for someone to have to be on camera, that's actually your profession, for me whenever I don’t want to be on camera, you do it, like you just go, everyone has to do it. I'm a producer, I don't have to be on camera if I don't want to be on camera.

Judee: I want to learn how to be a producer. I want to learn how to be a producer.

Nicole: You can man. 

Yen-Lyng: Or you can just go more to a writer/director persona.

Judee: I could, I could, I could, yeah.

Jayce: Now with your skills, for sure, you can do a lot.

Judee: Let me just say, I'm very good at doing all this government things. Someone's trying to break in, someone’s to break in everyone. 

Jayce: Right so talking about that Judee, I just want to build on the… 

Judee: Government?

Jayce: No, no, no.

Nicole: Government, please no more government guys. I feel like that's not a good topic to talk about.

Jayce: Exactly, especially not in Singapore. Anyway, just going back to your question about high and low, how do you actually manage? Because as a freelancer as well, and I'm sure Nicole, you know when you run a company, there's definitely low points and there's definitely very high points. So, would you mind sharing with us some of your lowest points and how do you actually overcome those challenges and get yourself out of it again? I think that's the resilience that a lot of Singaporeans have.

Nicole: You have to think about it.

Judee:  At that point actually, I mean I won't say when, because I don't want to get into that thing, because it's convoluted. But, when it happened, at that point in time I had a few projects lined up, so I had to just kind of cut off a bit of connection to myself and just power through. 

Now, I don't recommend it as a long-term kind of solution, but sometimes, you know human beings, we are so resilient, human nature is like that, and I'm going to talk like an artist right now. You know, when you see the concrete slabs on the ground and then you see this one little flower, we are like that, right girls?

Nicole: How poetic. We just met guys.

Judee: But I am always, I have that sort of sensibility that sometimes as a comedian or as just someone in this modern society, that I cannot really always talk about or reveal, but I am not afraid or shy to share it. There is that sensibility, which makes me sensitive to my work, which is why, when I write or create characters, people have told me, “How come your characters are so real?” Then I'm like, “Well you know, you've got to get there.” 

So, when I am sometimes really, really down, the same thing that helps me create, the same thing that helps me understand that, “Hey, this is a bad moment.” It feels really, utterly bad and I have had super tragic points, but I go for that point. I will look for those beautiful moments, yeah like that little plant or all those pictures of cats that give each other massages, or like little puppies getting saved.

Jayce:  Or babies coming together.

Judee: Yeah, you know, and reminds you about the whole spectrum of life, it's not just that. So, hopefully then we will keep going and going and if you feel that this is really your calling in life, not like, “Calling,” but just a calling, like everyone has a way to express themselves, so if this is your way, you're bound to have all this. So, you just try to get over slowly, slowly.

Yen-Lyng: I did hear once though that comedians, it was from a comedian himself, and it was that comedians are one of the most tragic people, but that is what makes them very funny a lot of times, a lot of the times it's just finding that very black humour, it's being able to find that funny part.

Nicole: I mean if you actually hear a stand up, all they're really doing is complaining but in a funny way, basically they're just doing it in a funny way and people just find it funny.

Yen-Lyng: And like, sort of dig a hole that no one else dares to dig.

Nicole: Exactly, a lot of comedians are really offensive, but I think that's what's so funny, because they're going to be daring enough to say whatever they want to say.

Judee: And then the audience that buy the tickets to come there to watch, they think, “What's wrong with you?”

Nicole: Yeah, “Why are you saying that?”

Judee: You view that sometimes on stage though, and they love it when you heckle them, they're like, “Oh do it to me. Do it to me. Oh my god! She picked me.” But it's like, we understand that, because we are all human beings, but someone is going to be the one talking, someone is going to be the one listening, but it's actually everyone connecting on the same thing, so you understand, “Yeah, we're not really abusing you. We're sharing something.”

Jayce: What about yourself Nicole, did you ever have a lowest point in time?

Nicole: When we first started out, definitely, because you could call us a start-up basically. I still don't pay myself salary. We have a very small team and my partners, we don't pay ourselves salaries, so there was a point in the beginning where, of course, money definitely was an issue, and the YouTubing thing is such a gamble, you're either going to make it or you don't. Someone has to notice you eventually, and it's such a large sea of people, and you have to basically really find your target audience and then they're just going to share you by word of mouth or whatever. 

So definitely, there was, in the first few months, when we were just trying to figure out how to be a company and trying to rake-up clients, because although we are a company, a lot of the money that we make is off freelancing. So, we find clients who want to make videos, or now, we make a lot of our money through endorsements, products that come into the video. Obviously, in the beginning, no products are going to be like, “Oh you have 5000 subscribers, I don't care about you guys.” 

But now, it's a little bit easier, obviously people know who we are, we get a lot more people. I mean my partner has people buying him bottles in clubs now, they're like, “Oh, we really like your content.” 

So, I think, definitely in the beginning it was a lot of me calling up through the middle of the night being like, “We're never going to make it, I don't know why we started this. I should've just stayed in TV. I don't know what I'm doing.” But now, I think it's definitely paid off. It really is such a… Like, I even get so… what’s the word? A little bit emotional, I guess, when someone… There are times when I'm in the bathroom and there are girls who are stop me and they're like, “You're that girl from Fix Productions,” and I'm like, “Stop it.” Because it was a lot of hard work that we went through.

So, there definitely have been some low points. I want to say we're high now, but I feel like that's illegal to say that.

Jayce: But I think it's always good right, because of all the hard work, passion and effort that you put in and then now, today, you have reached this, I think it's actually a cause for celebrations, right? Even small success you celebrate. 

Nicole: Yeah, and we reached 100,000 not even like a week ago, and we got really drunk. But it was basically him coming to my apartment and us finishing a bottle of whisky.

Yen-Lyng: But I have to say, for those of you actually listening or watching, we say a few weeks ago or a week ago but we're going to release this much later, so it won't be then. By then you'd reach a few more high points.

Judee: Yeah, it's really exciting, this whole new digital thing. Well what do you guys think about it?

Yen-Lyng: The digital?

Jayce: So now we are the guests.

Yen-Lyng: This is what you get when you hire hosts. You get a host [unclear 00:29:03 – 00:29:15]

Judee: This is good to know, from your point. I mean Creatives At Work is so great, the idea is really like…

Jayce: Thank you.

Judee: No, no, but honestly, it's like you guys, because the market is growing, as the market grows, so what happens is freelancers, it’s like all around. It’s kind of like a nest, it’s kind of like better. I mean, I haven't really visited your nest.

Jayce: You're in our house already.

Judee: But it's good. What was the inspiration for something like that? 

Yen-Lyng: Creatives At Work.

Judee: Yeah, because I thought about doing something like that, but I just never had the stamina, because when you're working as a freelancer, you can only focus on your product. Something like that, you can only focus on your productions and your stuff. 

Yen-Lyng: On the productions, whether it's paying you.

Judee: Basically yes, your bread. Yeah, so even though I was like, “Hey man, I think this is something that's needed.” The thing that I love about being a freelancer is this, I used to be represented before for a while, of course… 

Yen-Lyng: Yeah, not now?

Judee: Yeah, now I'm not. But then it's like, I mean there's good and bad, I won't go into that. But the thing, the idea about being a freelancer, is that I think what's important is for each artist to keep retaining their individual style, flavour, whatever it is, yet at the same time be protected in their work environment, which is everything else. 

So, if there was an agency or if there was just a collective or something, I suppose they call it a union somewhere else, but which is that protects everyone, but each individual person can still have their own development, their own artistic process.

Jayce: Yeah that's right. I think that's the ideal situation, and I think Singapore is moving towards that direction. But of course, I think freelancing is something that has just started quite recently in Singapore and as well as in Asia.

Yen-Lyng: I mean maybe it's acknowledged recently, it's always been there.

Jayce: So, we can't compare ourselves with those in the US or even in Europe, right? Where they are so much more advanced in terms of the protection of freelancers, in terms of the acknowledgement of projects like that. But because of the different [unclear 00:31:41] coming together, I think right now people are more aware, freelancers as well as employers, right? So, they know that there's these resources that are available out there that they can actually tap on to, to actually grow the company. So, I think that's actually a good thing.

Judee: I must plug MP Baey Yam Keng, he has been very… 

Jayce: Yeah, actually there have been a few MPs who have been very supportive along the way, trying to push this ahead, but of course…

Nicole: I need to learn about Singapore more.

Jayce: But, of course, I think more needs to be done, and I think if people were to come together, then, of course, more can be achieved.

So, one of the reasons behind this podcast, was also one such reason, because one of the things that we wanted to do was also promote awareness, because a lot of times, I think, freelancers have been a self-employed person, to a certain extent they’re responsible for some of their actions, because you chose this career, so you should actually be prepared to take the good and the bad of it. So, whatever it is, if we can come together as a collective or as a group, and then we can grow the industry together, I think that is the best way forward for everybody. 

So, in that sense, to respond to your questions about how Creatives At Work works.

Judee: Yeah, how and when and where?

Jayce:  The digital media industry, of course, I think that is definitely a growth area. In fact, right now, if we actually dissect our clients’ requests, actually most of the requests are on digital media. So, whether you like it not, the world is moving in that direction, because humans behaviour changes, a different way of working. So, I think that is something that the freelancers need to adapt themselves to. 

I think one thing that the freelancers pull, that we deal with right now, is quite, I would say, diverse. So, we have those young, millennials, fresh out of school, who have a lot of passion, motivation and aspiration to do the best that they want to do, but on the other hand, we have a lot of very experienced, industry veterans who are still freelancing now. So, I feel that now we are at a point where these two groups of people are meeting in the workforce now. So, then the challenge is…

Judee: What is the common language?

Jayce: How are we going to come and work together as a team? Because media is all about collaborative effort. 

Nicole: Yeah, creative work.

Jayce. And how the more industry veterans who are so used to the traditional way of doing things, like yourself right? I mean you come from the TV industry, different TV industries, but how do you learn about YouTube? How do you know about the tastes of the audiences? So, all of this, I think, and the freelancers need to actually take some time to learn this.

Actually, talking about that, when you first moved from the TV industry to setting up your own business, to setting up this YouTube channel, what was some of the motivation behind this shift?

Nicole: I think because I had been working in television for so long, I was working for a large network, one of the largest networks in Indonesia and then I moved on as a director of content for another network. In between I was actually freelancing, I was a producer for films. The reason I decided to do this was because I had been working for people, and I wanted to basically work for myself, and I wanted to basically work on my schedule and to figure out… You know, I realized that in the TV industry, and as well, the partner that I have now, that TV in Indonesia is very old-fashioned, what works and what sells on TV in Indonesia is a lot of, it is a lot of the soap operas that we would not probably watch, but that's what the masses like. I think, the production house that I was working for before tried to make something that was a little bit more ‘wow’, and it didn't do well in the network. I think because the masses don't like to watch something that has to make them think and I think I was a little bit tired of doing that. 

So, the YouTube industry was obviously growing within America and Europe, and I asked my now-partner if he wanted to do this with me. He was also doing television, and the transition was different, but it's not as different as TV, in the sense of the technicalities of it. I think that the content is what you put out, because a lot of the things on YouTube now may be more censored than they used to be, but you can obviously put more things on YouTube. For example, a lot of our content has a lot of alcohol and swearing. We have a lot of swearing, and we don't condone it or anything, but it's sort of the brand and the character that we bring in, and actually that has brought on a lot of brands, alcohol brands have come to us to advertise, because a lot of other YouTubers don't do that, and a lot of Indonesians don't tend to drink on television. Obviously the same here as well, like smoking is not allowed on television as well, right? 

So, on YouTube you have the freedom to basically do what you want. The only thing we've ever been flagged on, on YouTube is music. Royalty, in the beginning nobody cared about the music, but now that we have a 100,000 subscribers people are like flagging us down.

Judee: Yeah because like, “Are you making money off me?”

Nicole: Exactly, so that's something we have to be careful about, but other than that, we've never really been flagged for anything. I think that’s probably the only thing.

But in terms of the technicalities or the operations, I think that's the good thing in how we've kept going, because my partner and I come from a production background and we know, we know what it's like. We've worked the 24-hour shifts, we've done the weekends and everything, like not gone home and slept on location and everything. So, it's not really that hard as long as you put something worthwhile for someone to watch out there.

Yen-Lyng: That's right. But I think the point where it's, in terms of digital, you can do anything you want basically. There are no rules. People try to say there are rules, but you know that there's no rules.

Nicole: There are some, but you know now, there's so many more platforms out there than YouTube, and we're trying to expand a lot of our content to other platforms. YouTube is obviously the bigger one, I mean it's just easier to give someone, “Oh this is my YouTube link, here watch this.”

Yen-Lyng: Yeah and they say, “Oh yeah, I go on YouTube all the time.” It's something they're familiar with.

Nicole: Yeah.

Judee: Hearing Nicole talk about her journey, I kind of feel like for you and your business partner, I think the advantage that you guys have, is that you've gone through that whole slogging in a traditional, so you were able to kind of face the challenges of this new little baby that you had. I was just thinking like, if it was, I don’t know, some millennials who had no work experience and just gone out there and wanted… 

Nicole: Tell me about it, we hire them now.

Yen-Lyng: Oh good, hiring freelancers, let's talk about this.

Nicole: Oh, it is the worst isn't it? Please don't tell me, we just hired a few interns and it's just like, oh my God.

Judee: So, it's about work experience I think, right? Whether they don't have that before and they think like, “Why are you asking me to do this?” 

Yen-Lyng: I think it's the attitude a lot of times. They are not used to it. In the past, the parents I think, it's that value.

Judee: They’ve gone through so much.

Yen-Lyng: Yeah, but they nurtured us about how you have to go and work hard, get a proper job.

Nicole: Life experience, yeah.

Yen-Lyng: Everything comes with a price, and this is something that, even though we don't tell the kids so much nowadays, I mean I don't have kids of my own, Jayce has.

Jayce: Too young to go to the workforce. 

Yen-Lyng: This is something that you tell the kids, my nephew and niece, that a lot of things… 

Judee: Yes, don't take things for granted.

Yen-Lyng: Yeah, they take a lot of things for granted.

Nicole: That’s for sure.

Yen-Lyng: They see money coming straight away, and they think, “Oh if something doesn't happen, money, buy, you throw away and you buy again. Something doesn't happen, why don't we go for more holidays? You have to work, why do you have to work?” That kind of thing. 

So, they don't quite understand it, even for us, I think as kids, even though we didn't quite understand it growing up, we had this concept, I think, that you have to work hard. Whereas a lot of the younger ones nowadays, I feel that there is just that basic principle of hard working missing.

Judee: So, having that kind of background, for her, hearing her story, is that she had such, really tiresome work experience, 24-hours. You went through the hardship of working, and then when you did your own baby, it was like, “Okay.” Somehow, somehow you have built a system to manage, but for those people who don't have, and you just launch yourself into it. So, in some ways it is not to dishearten anyone during this, but to know that if you have not had enough work experience, not have enough so-called hardships, don't beat yourself up about it, if you can't do it right the first time, just keep on going.

Jayce: Yeah, but I think that is very, how should I say it? It's a generation kind of thing, right? 

Nicole: All generations are different, I'm sure that the generation before us probably said the same thing about us.

Yen-Lyng: That's true.

Jayce: So, at the end of it, I think it's all about expectations and I think the schools can actually play a big role in it.

Judee: Education, definitely. But I'm very surprised about, you are saying that millennials, even when you hire in Indonesia?

Nicole: I think we're considered millennials, right? I think we are still considered millennials, right? I think millennials are from '83 onwards to 2000?

Yen-Lyng: No, apparently, we're not.

Nicole: Are we not? 

Yen-Lyng: No, we’re not.

Nicole: Are we not? I think I am. 

Jayce: Okay.

Nicole: I think I am. I'm considered the last…

Judee: Hiring millennials.

Nicole: So, no, actually, the interns that I just hired are called Gen Z, I don't know the names. But basically, the ones that are younger than me. Let's just say that. But you know, we have definitely hired a few people, because we like to hire younger kids right, the kids that think you can mould, and obviously this contributes to the content that we put out, because we want to know what's trending, and we definitely had circumstances where they've asked for more money and I'm like, “What? You know how much money I was making when I was at your age, and I was working more hours than you were?” 

So, it's something that I don't think that, sure I think we can complain about it, but I think at the most, if you were going to complain about it, try your best, if you have someone under you guys younger and doesn't understand that, to just teach it. If they don't want to learn then, “Alright, I don't have to see you any more, it's fine.” But it is part of the education for sure.

Who was I talking to, it was someone? In my high school now, they give laptops for free. Yeah, and it's crazy, they do everything… 

Yen-Lyng: Can you go back to school for it?

Nicole: I don't know, I don't know how much I'd want to be a part of that. Everything you do is on your laptop, they have these bracelets now that you have to pay, in the cafeteria you have to pay for your food with the bracelet and your parents can see what you have eaten. So, the parents can see if you've eaten something unhealthy. You know what I mean? 

So again, this is the age and the trend I think, and I think it's whether you want to keep up with it or not. But yeah, it's all about keeping up I guess. Scary right?

Judee: It's like that Black Mirror episode.

Nicole: Oh no, I don't watch Black Mirror.

Judee: You've never watched it?

Nicole: Nope. Someone told me about the first… 

Judee: But the thing is it's already happening in China isn't it? The whole clocking you based on your social media.

Nicole: Oh, is it?

Judee: Yeah.

Nicole: Okay, China's scary, I don't want to go there.

Yen-Lyng: But you mentioned about working with the younger, the new workforce. You want to mold them, that's one thing, but how receptive are they to being moulded?

Nicole: Some are definitely not. We've had a few people just leave, they're like, “You know what? I'm tired.” And I'm like, “Alright, bye.” But it's the ones that want to stick it out with you. The editor that we have right now has been with us for two years now, and he's grown, he's really grown a lot, and now we've sort of moved him up as head of production and he's willing to learn, and I'm really proud of him in that sense. But there's only a few that are going to be that humble, that are willing to accept when they've done something wrong, and vice versa. It's a two-way street. If I've done something wrong, I'm sure that he would want to tell me. I don't want it to be like an authoritarian thing either, where I'm like, “You have to listen to what I say.” 

So, it really depends on the person as well, it's part of their personality, there are definitely people who are like, “I don't want to listen. I don’t think you're right, I'm going to go and work for a bigger industry or company,” or whatever, and I'm like, “Alright go ahead, see how they treat you there.” 

Yen-Lyng: And having to work with a lot of different teams as well, which, I’m sure Judee, you've met. I won't say younger people, but just people who won't communicate as easily.

Judee: Yeah, I mean I'm an actress, so I'm like, in terms of the hierarchy, the actress is the last bit of it, everybody else is… It's like that, I mean I've been a producer before, I mean the producer is like the top, the actors are like… So, how do I say? I've had both experiences, and it's not a matter of age, it's more about personality, I mean that is my experience. I mean I've had people, so-called my age, who have walked out on me at the crucial moments.

Nicole: It's just definitely not a thing actually. I mean obviously respect. I think we're Asian in that sense, like respect your elders, but age should not be a thing.

Judee: Yeah, it's not that. So sometimes really, you never know what someone's going through, whatever, but definitely conflict at work, stuff like that, I think it's got to do with personality.

Nicole: Exactly, yeah, it's just a person’s morals and how they work. What they think is right or wrong, that's about it.

Judee: Yeah, and in terms of age, then I would say it's a matter of like, if they are older they probably have more experience, so you can count on that. So, if a younger one… So, your kind of like losing if you are young and you don't have experience, yeah, well you've got to learn. You've got to have a learning attitude.

Nicole: Yeah, of course, and be willing to accept it.

Judee: And be willing to accept it. But if you are older and then you have more experience, you also need to be a bit humble and be able to meet people at their level. 

In this creative industry, I think, for me, my experiences with that, I was meeting people who are coming in at different entry points, everyone is at a different entry point. The camera man, maybe I've seen before, I don't know where, maybe the lighting guy is like super, 30 or 40 years old.

Nicole: This is so true. 

Judee: Everyone is at… and then you’re like…

Nicole: Whenever we hire people for projects, we outsource a lot of our crew members, sometimes I'll just hire my camera guy and he'll be like, “Okay, I need three other guys,” and I'm like, “Okay,” and then on the day of the shooting, I'm like, “Hey I've hired you before.” So, it's totally right, you need people so randomly. 

Judee: Everywhere.

Nicole: And I'm like, “Oh I haven't seen you in years,” or whatever, and I think that's the same in any sort of entertainment industry.

Jayce: So, in Indonesia, is freelancing also a very common thing?

Nicole: I think in production. In product it is. I would say in the creative industry it definitely is. I don't think that the government supports it. I could be really wrong, please don't like, they might kick me out. It's still a developing country, so I don't think people support it or the government supports it as much as we would like to, but like you said, it's been around forever, and I think that… 

Judee: Free market.

Nicole: Yeah, it's a free market, and I think that it's very common within the creative industry, but in other industries I'm not really sure, but definitely in the production industry, yes.

Jayce: How about in theatre? So Judee, you have been in theatre for so long, do you see the growth in people choosing freelancing as a career, or are a lot more people are actually waiting to be hired in that sense?

Judee: Well, from what I hear, I think they are… Well now, you know, we have Lasalle, NAFA, and we even have SOTA. In my position I'm thinking, “What are you going to do when you graduate?” I came from the time when there was no such kind of school, there was only Lasalle, and then Lasalle disappeared for a while, there was a time when Lasalle was a bit [unclear 00:48:31]. A lot of my own class mates, not everyone chose the performing route, even though we had studied. A lot of them became lawyers.

Nicole: Really? Lawyers?

Judee: I wanted to be a lawyer. 

Nicole: I guess because you could act like a lawyer, that's crazy. What a crazy jump.

Judee: You'd think so, it's very, very, very common in Singapore, yeah. 

Yen-Lyng: I mean if you see one or two, yeah, but it's a common jump.

Judee: It's like a very common thing, because Adrian Pang is a lawyer, Selena is a lawyer, all of these top… 

Nicole: Are they successful lawyers?

Judee: They studied law. So, a lot of my friends did law.

Nicole: That's crazy. I think that is a crazy career change.

Jayce: But I'm thinking it could be, how should I say? It could be an environment kind of thing, right? Because when you are growing up, or at least during our time when we were growing up, our parents always tell us, “Be a lawyer, be a doctor, be an accountant.” So maybe a lot of people tend, and us being Asian, we tend to listen to our parents. So, we grow up saying, “Okay, my mum told me that I need to be a lawyer, my mum told me need to be a banker.” So hence, naturally when it comes to selection, of course you go that route. But then after being a lawyer, you realize, “Hey my mum doesn't have to care about me now.” So hence, a lot us then say, “Okay, I have enough of my… I have [unclear 00:49:52], now I want to do what I like. So, I want to be an actor, I want to be a producer, I want to be my own film producer.”

Yen-Lyng: But better is the other way, when they come from the lawyer background or the more traditional background and then they jump into the arts, but do you see the other way around, where they go from the arts to being a lawyer?

Judee: No, that kind of jump is way harder, but I have thought about whether I want to revisit my one-time, long time ago dream of wanting to pursue law. I thought about it.

Jayce: So, you need to go back to school right, and re study for the degree.

Judee: I mean it's personal, I don't know how it is for other people, but I think, in a sense, it's about like justice and truth, and helping to serve people. Arts is like that; traditional theatre is like that. Traditional theatre is about that, especially when you study Greek theatre, it's about the gods, what you should be, “Hubris will bring you to your downfall, blah, blah, blah. How society needs to be, blah, blah, blah.” All very naïve at that age. You think that if you share with your audience all these things, they're going to listen and yeah, yeah, yeah. But the real world isn't quite like that.

Yen-Lyng: So how did you get into creative arts then? You know, wanting to be a lawyer and then suddenly you went to theatre school.

Judee: Oh yeah, so, I was in VJ, and that was when I thought, “Okay, since I got into one of the top colleges, I would then go to university and get a law degree.” But I was so disillusioned when I was in JC, with for some reason, life just happened that way, so disillusioned with the whole education system, and then I didn't do well. Just don't do well, you're not going to get a law degree. 

Yen-Lyng: Naturally.

Judee: Naturally you fail. Then, it's really a series of events. I don't know even how it happened. So, I always say, this is something when I went to L.A for a music, voice… I'm a singer as well, so I went for this vocal course. 

Yen-Lyng: Sings very well.

Judee: Oh, thank you, vocal, kind of like summer camp, and then there was this guy who was the musical director, at that time Wicked in L.A. So, he says this thing, again I'm going to get into quite a philosophical mode, bear with me.

Nicole: It's the artist in you.

Judee: Yeah, it is. So, he says, “When you choose or be chosen, something like that, you don't choose it, it chooses you.” Yeah? So, I'll just leave it at that.

Yen-Lyng: But Nicole did you choose? And I know you say at that time you started working in TV production and everything. 

Nicole: I wanted to go to Berkeley in the music school as a singer, and I did not like it. I think honestly, that industry is super competitive to be an actress and a singer and everything, and I'm just really not a competitive person as nature.

Judee: Isn't it just tiring, just thinking about it?

Nicole: I'm sure that it is, and I went into broadcasting and I actually wanted to be a reporter or a journalist.

Judee: I have that too.

Jayce: I think with people… 

Nicole: Yeah, I think we tend to change our interest and then I think what happened, because the first offer that I had gotten was from Indonesia, obviously my Indonesian as a journalist, I don't speak formal Indonesian, I speak very slang Indonesian. I think, if I had come back to Singapore first and tried to be a journalist here, I may have succeeded. But I don't think I would have changed that, because I think to be a journalist and to be someone on camera, actress, singer, dancer, whatever, performer, I think you really have to compete and I think I would've been so tired, and to even try to be a journalist, you really have to be on your stuff, you have to know all the stories, you have to speak eloquently and be on camera, whatever, and I think I would've just been like, “No.” 

So, the first job that I got was as a producer for this soap opera stuff, and I just went from there. And sometimes it's fun, like if people need someone to be on camera, it's fun to be like, “Hey!” But I think it's really tiring and you really have to want to be a performer and an entertainer and really like people, because a lot of people are going to come up to you and be like, “Oh my God, I love your work, blah, blah, blah,” and sometimes you just don't want to talk with them. So, I think it's a lot of work.

I think some people underestimate actresses or actors and performers and think, “Wow, it must be really easy to be a model,” or, “It must be really easy to be something,” but I think all jobs have their perks. 

Judee: Yeah, and also the other side of it. 

Nicole: Whatever you decide to do, that's what you have decided to do, and everything will have pros and cons.

Yen-Lyng: So just, because we are running out of time. Of all of the experiences that we have talked about, having been through what you have been through, what is, looking back now at your younger self, what would you say to yourself? Maybe there is sometime where you were just starting out, or maybe even when you were in school? This is something you want to tell yourself.

Jayce: So, this is actually a question that we ask every guest who come to our podcast.

Nicole: Okay, it's very deep. Here, another chance for your artist to come out.

Jayce: You can take a minute to think about it, so if you were to give one piece of advice to your younger self, what would that be? You don't have to rush, we have time, we have a lot of time.

Nicole: Can I get some coffee? 

Judee: How young?

Jayce: Up to you.

Yen-Lyng: Maybe when you were just starting out.

Jayce: When you were just starting out.

Nicole: You can go first. Is it really nerve wrecking?

Judee: It's just like, well, I've never…

Jayce: You’ve never thought about this?

Judee: Maybe because, at this point I'm still trying to figure out what I should tell myself now. I'm still at that process, you know? I'm still at the… because when I started I didn't think, I think. I didn't have to think about anything, because I was just young and reckless and just did anything I felt like doing. I've come to a point where, and women get there, I think not yet, and maybe not for every woman, but I have come to a point where I'm starting to feel the pressures of being a woman in society.

Jayce: Oh, is that right? Okay.

Judee: I have come to that point, yeah. 

Jayce: Oh, really?

Judee: I never had this.

Jayce: Now, you mean now you are experiencing this? Was that because Singapore is outrunning stress compared to other places.

Judee: No, I mean it's the whole age, where I'm getting older, I have white hair now, my body is… 

Jayce: But you did it to yourself right?

Nicole: This is blonde.

Judee: But things that never, that I don't have to think about, and then I'm at that age, I'm like “Oh, I'm not yet married, no kids.” 

Jayce: You're still trying to figure out right?

Yen-Lyng: Is it because people start asking you?

Judee: This is what I mean.

Nicole: I want you to know that I might look young, a lot of people think I'm younger than my age, but I'm also in the same boat as you right now.

Judee: So, it gets there. 

Nicole: Oh definitely, the body thing definitely, I’m telling you man. What did I tell you about the sugars? It's because of that.

Yen-Lyng: Black coffee. 

Judee: Yeah, and then I get into this thing about, as an artist, I don't know about others, but a lot of us, this whole overthinking cycle, I'm like, “Do I have to worry about this? I never used to, but if I don't worry about it now, then where do I pitch myself?”

Jayce: That's true.

Judee: And then I'm like, “Okay, what do I want to say to myself now?” Because this was all stuff that I never would have, I think, “Huh? What do you think about that?” Only now. So, that kind of question is like…

Then, me now, do I think I want to tell myself 10 year ago or 20 year ago self, “Hey you've got to start preparing you know, for this kind of future that's coming. You've got to buy an insurance plan, you've got to make sure you've got all this, blah, blah, blah.”

Nicole: Basically, just your mother.

Judee: Yeah, yeah, but then, I also don't want, because she has so much, she had so much fun, so I don't know. This is my open-ended answer.

Nicole: You got really nervous there, like, “I don't know what to say to myself.”

Judee: Yeah, this is like my open-ended answer, but it's also like I'm at this stage where I suppose I would like to share my anxieties with all other women out there, yeah. So, at this age, where are we in society as women? Why do we need to go through all these things? These are questions I think about and I kind of feel like, can we answer them please? I would love to hear, I would love to have someone.

Jayce: Have you spoke about this to your close friends?

Judee: No.

Jayce: So, this is really the first time that we properly… 

Judee: Because this is not a conversation.

Nicole: “I was just thinking.”

Judee: It's so hard to, because it's not something that is out there in the media, what the media is selling us now, and then with the event and this insurgence of this digital media, everything out there is like, “Beauty, beauty, young,” and you're like, “Where am I going with this?”

Yen-Lyng: But is it because you guys are in front of the camera again? A lot of times, you are sometimes, but maybe you feel it more because you are more, more a percentage of your career? 

Judee: I suppose, because I know that they need to have a type or something. You know what I mean?

Jayce: And I think it's also because of the nature of what you're doing, so you tend to be a bit more sensitive.

Judee: Yeah, because I know like what… 

Jayce: So, you react to it quite consistently.

Judee: Perhaps, yeah, and also… yeah, definitely that. So, I'm not sure what I would say. I would say, okay, you know what, this is what I’ll say, “Good job, good job.”

Nicole: “You had fun, you had fun, let me take care of the rest.”

Judee: Yeah, “At least you had fun.”

Yen-Lyng: How about yourself Nicole?

Nicole: Like I said, I think I'm sort of in the same boat. I've also been thinking about a lot of those things, where I'm also not married, I'm turning 30 in a week, so that's a big thing for me, and my mum is very, very Asian, and very like, “Where are my grandchildren?” Sort of thing, and it's not something like you said, it’s not something that I ever thought about. I mean, I did think about of course, and I think every man or woman, you have certain goals for yourself when you reach 30, it's not a woman thing only.

Yen-Lyng: But they were not pressing, right?

Nicole: Yeah, it was not something that I really thought about. I do see the changes in the body, it's annoying me. I used to eat McDonald's every night but now I can't. But I think what I would say, was I would tell myself to take more chances. I think now, that I was just focusing so much on certain things or, “How do I make more money?” Or, “How do I do this?” Or, “How to succeed?” But now, I think when you reach a certain age, I don't think I could do the things that I could do when you're 22 for example, you can't just take that internship in a different country anymore because you need to make more money for yourself at a certain age.

Judee: And you can't do the 24-hour overnight. 

Nicole: No, that’s for sure.

Judee: Not in the same way.

Nicole: I used to be able to drink all night and go to work at eight and still feel completely fine, and now I can't do that. I'm just getting on. 

So yeah, that's probably what I would tell myself, my, just graduate university self, take more chances. Don't stick to just like… The first job that I took, I was there for almost six years, so I think it was just because, “Am I going to find another job? Is someone going to hire me outside of Indonesia? Because everything that I know is here.” So, you know, that's probably what I would tell myself, because I probably can't do all of the things that I wanted to do now that I'm reaching 30. Or I can, but I want more money.

Jayce: Different priorities in life.

Nicole: Yes.

Judee: And do it while you still can, kind of thing.

Yen-Lyng: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole: Definitely.

Jayce: And be more positive as well, so when you reach this age you are happier. Well, thank you so much.

Nicole: Thank you for having us.

Yen-Lyng: Thank you ladies.

Judee: So, thank you for tuning into another episode for Freelance Creative Exchange.

Nicole: Subscribe to iTunes and Spotify and leave us a review.

Judee: A good review.

Nicole: Well, they can leave a bad one if they want, but I’m not going to care about that.

Judee: Yeah, we’ll just drink, we’ll just drink.

Nicole: We’ll just drink, that’s fine.

Judee: Also subscribe to our YouTube channel and leave a comment because we want to hear what you think. Yep, let us know the questions or the freelancer you want to hear from.

Nicole: Follow us, or these guys at Creatives At Work on Facebook and Instagram.

Judee: Mine is @judeetan, J-U-D-E-E-T-A-N, and yours please?

Nicole: @fixproductions.

Yen-Lyng: And Freelance Creative Exchange has their own Instagram, @freelancecreatives.

Nicole: I didn’t think we were allowed to do that.

Judee: So, join us the next time for a brand-new episode starring… we don't know who yet, they'll be a surprise.

Nicole: Until then, bye-bye and have an awesome week. Thank you very, very much.

Jayce: Thank you Judee and Nicole as well.

Nicole: Thank you.

Judee: Thank you.

Jayce: Bye.